The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by boko

Reread what snaek been saying, he/she has been saying that this was one of the many steps needed. Not the only one...

Yes. And I'm saying the same.

The only difference is that I say start with some other.

Additionally, they don't say what other steps will be. Present the all plan. Otherwise it seems those are the only problem and all else is fine.

I suggested more steps than just those.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by boko

So, maybe we can actually talk about what is good for the game and not bother with useless details like how or whether the fix will be released overnight or by steps if ever they release the "fix" ?

I already said - make mobs power not stat based and build/team based instead.

That is the ideal. Give them 2 professions. Give them good team builds.

The game will require more skill and will be closer to the PvP style of play. It might not be harder maybe.

Removing or nerfing, depending on the poster, is a step. But you don't have to do it till all other things are in place. Especially because those steps won't change the game philosophy.

And a change in game philosophy is what the game needs. If you don't then why bother?

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Additionally, they don't say what other steps will be...

eh?

We've been acknowledging the other problems for numerous pages now. We've said "changing these won't fix everything else" in numerous posts.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

eh?

We've been acknowledging the other problems for numerous pages now. We've said "changing these won't fix everything else" in numerous posts.

Then you agree with me that buffing the mobs stats to make it more challenging is a bad idea? That is better to reduce their stats power, give them better builds and make them closer to human level?

If you agree with that and defend that the HM buffs mobs get are stupid, then we agree with the same.

Since that will require such a change, chances are it will never happen, but if does happen might as well come in a nice single huge patch, to make all community understand why it is happening and not to piss someone in between all stuff gets into place.

Good we went from the "but others games have various difficulty levels that are harder so we need to make the game harder till it lives up to its name" to "lets change the way hard in implemented".

So concluding we want:
- mobs groups with team builds;
- mobs with better builds and 2 professions;
- mobs without stupidly OP monster only skills;
- to get rid of stupid environmental effects, including the HM benefits mobs get;
- in exchange mobs get something like 1-2 additional member and slightly higher levels in HM;
- PvE-only skills and consumables either removed entirely or in line with other skills (just to make up for class differences);
- mobs recognize that their attacks are being wasted and change targets along with other AI improvements like casting by opponent class and not just weapon;
- PvE mob style of play closer to PvP teams style of play;
- make rewards for regular play equal or better to farming;
- etc.

[boko]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I already said - make mobs power not stat based and build/team based instead.

That is the ideal. Give them 2 professions. Give them good team builds.

The game will require more skill and will be closer to the PvP style of play. It might not be harder maybe.

Removing or nerfing, depending on the poster, is a step. But you don't have to do it till all other things are in place. Especially because those steps won't change the game philosophy.

And a change in game philosophy is what the game needs. If you don't then why bother?

Agreed. This is more or less what many including me have been trying to say. Different order, but whatever, the end result will be the same. So, you reckon that the rebalancing of pveskills and consumables would be much welcomed if Anet changed those design and builds of mobs?

I couldn't care whether they do step 2 before step 1 or the other way round, all that matters is the end result.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by boko

Agreed. This is more or less what many including me have been trying to say. Different order, but whatever, the end result will be the same. So, you reckon that the rebalancing of pveskills and consumables would be much welcomed if Anet changed those design and builds of mobs?

I couldn't care whether they do step 2 before step 1 or the other way round, all that matters is the end result.

And including me.

If you read all from the beginning many just wanted to remove/nerf stuff cause that would make it harder and that would be enough.

I'm just against half ass measures that the only effect is depopulate the game.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Then you agree with me that buffing the mobs stats to make it more challenging is a bad idea?

The only problem I have with it is some scaling issues: Prot Spirit, Mesmers, etc. Aside from that I just see it as it's namesake intends: hard mode. Sure some builds could use some touch-ups, but bear in mind we're still dealing with an AI, something continuously inconsistent. Because of that, the only way you're going to find any sort of "challenge" is through "the stupid shit".

And honestly, from my perspective in Guild Wars, those are the only instances I've happened to find anything challenging as well. I never noticed the Charr really tossing too many hard punches in GW:EN save for when one of their Ele's starts to cast MS or Firestorm. In the Realm of Torment in NF I only recall having "trouble" when I didn't kill the MM or when I didn't catch Call to Torment. In Kourna and the Desolation I think the only time I found it difficult is when going against a boss mob, but aside from that - even though they had decently configured and balanced team builds - I didn't see anything that popped out to me as "challenging".

The problem? All of those areas I mentioned actually have enemies with decently configured builds.

So the question is this: how much of a difference would we actually see? Given what I've said above, the answer would appear that it would be less difficult. Now I fully agree with getting rid of this stuff in Normal Mode since that's what would be called the "intended" form of play, but in terms of Hard Mode I can't say the same.

When it comes to the monster side of balancing, what really needs fixing?

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Avarre and I said overpowering the mobs to make them more difficulty make the gap between PvE and PvP bigger.

He said just about anything that increases the gap (including seperating skills and adding PvE only skills and items) is bad for the process. You want a complete PvP/PvE seperation. Its ok you aren't the only one though.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

No, I didn't said that. I said it wouldn't ruin the depth of the game for me since I wouldn't use it. And Avarre's overpowered included the stats of the mobs.

That is different.

I also said the dupe of armbraces didn't affect my game while you said, somehow and the only way I see was if you bought one, it affected the depth of your game.

Sigh...we've been over this time and time again. We aren't talking about what does or doesn't affect you or me. We are talking about what does or doesn't affect the game. The game has a community in the same world as you. If you choose to not be a part of it that isn't the problem of the game. If there are changes that affect everybody that is a problem of the game.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Apparently you said that you wouldn't use those either because you said you don't use PvE-only skills and consumables and not even pve/pvp split skills.

See, you can choose too without needing a leash. Lets other people choose for themselves. (And no, I'm not asking Anet for a god mode. Wouldn't affect me but there is no reason to bring it on.)

We've been over this time and time again. Saying "don't like it don't use it" is a terrible argument on so many levels that I don't have time to type it out right now. If you think god mode would be ok, I don't see how you can agree with the open letter though. It surely doesn't agree with you.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If Anet can solve all the problems and bring the game back to the state PvE mobs are close to what humans would do in PvP (and that will include nerfing the stats of the mobs, while changing their builds and team composition), then yes you can strive for skill and for honor of the game, because the game won't have wounds that need first aid bandages.

We've been over this time and time again...we know that fixing the band aids wouldn't fix the entire game. It would be a big start though just like fixing Ursan was. These things are shining beacons that point to the inbalances of the game as a whole.

The problem here isn't that we aren't neccessarily suggesting things that WILL happen to the game, because we KNOW that nothing will probably happen. You probably have no idea how PvPers feel about that. GW2 is in full swing and GW1 is basically nothing in the eyes of Anet nowadays. The problem here (as I've already said) is that the franchise needs a fresh start and GW1 is a perfect place to point out the flaws that Anet has made in hopes that they won't make them again. The worst scenario would be Anet not listening to us and not realizing what they have done. The skill of the community has suffered because of all of this.

[snaek]

the reason i suggest skill balance as the first step is because that is what anet is most familiar with. if anet was indeed going to take action, skills would probably be the first thing they would touch. another factor is that skill updates is an ongoing process. you will see it in the 1st step, you will see it in the 2nd step, the 3rd step, 4th step, etc, etc.

i already acknowledged that revamping monsters is a good idea. if they decided to put in the tons of work required to revamp specific areas and specific monsters, most likely a skill balance will be included along with it. do not forget that monsters use skills to.

when it comes to gameplay, skills are generally the biggest influence in how its played, i.e. if solo farming skills did not exist, solo farming gameplay would not exist.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The only problem I have with it is some scaling issues: Prot Spirit, Mesmers, etc. Aside from that I just see it as it's namesake intends: hard mode. Sure some builds could use some touch-ups, but bear in mind we're still dealing with an AI, something continuously inconsistent. Because of that, the only way you're going to find any sort of "challenge" is through "the stupid shit".

I thought this was a discussion on why the average player doesn't know/understand the game mechanics and insists Searing Flames elementalist is the shit in terms of damage.

Because if what you want is "stupid hard" you can also get monsters that only can lose 1 health per attack/spell and steal 1000 damage with a skill (a skill - skill not spell).

That will be hard as shit, on the verge of the impossible.

Won't make the average player more knowledgeable of the game mechanics though.

Those mobs that have "decent builds" are indeed harder and require better understanding of the game mechanics, unless you exploit them or use the overpowered stuff. 3 aataxes on the other hand, even hitting harder/being higher level pose no threat.

Of course if the overpowered stuff didn't exist and the mobs had builds like their own "sabway" or "discordway" spike, things would be interesting.

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Sigh...we've been over this time and time again. We aren't talking about what does or doesn't affect you or me. We are talking about what does or doesn't affect the game. The game has a community in the same world as you. If you choose to not be a part of it that isn't the problem of the game. If there are changes that affect everybody that is a problem of the game.

Do you know what items I have or haven't?

I may have duped armbraces and have 1000 of them sitting on my chest.

How does that knowledge or lack of it changes the playstyle of the game? Changes your builds, change the way you use your skills?

I thought this was a discussion on why the average player doesn't know/understand the game mechanics and insists Searing Flames elementalist is the shit in terms of damage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So my friends, if your objective is making the game harder through stupid shit, I will have to say that in my opinion it won't increase the depth of my game and of other people that think like me or the average understanding of the game mechanics by the player base.

You have the right to want it harder and believe it will be more fun. I've the right to disagree with it and think it will be less fun.

Please just don't say that making the game harder through stupid shit will make people more knowledgeable of the game and more skillful in the PvP sense of skill.

Avarre post was/is (at least the way I'm reading it, feel free to disabuse me of the notion Avarre) about creating both stupid "hard stuff" and both stupid "overpowered ways" of defeating it, because that increased the gap between the PvE and the PvP community. And that is bad to both communities.

The OP was why the community lacks knowledge of the game mechanics and prefer to abuse stuff instead and how can we increase the average knowledge of the player base.

Stupid hard stuff isn't in my opinion the way of achieving that. That was all I (and others that think like me) was saying and I was discussing the merits (or lack of it) of increasing the game difficulty through stupid shit from that perspective.

[kostolomac]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And honestly, from my perspective in Guild Wars, those are the only instances I've happened to find anything challenging as well. I never noticed the Charr really tossing too many hard punches in GW:EN save for when one of their Ele's starts to cast MS or Firestorm. In the Realm of Torment in NF I only recall having "trouble" when I didn't kill the MM or when I didn't catch Call to Torment. In Kourna and the Desolation I think the only time I found it difficult is when going against a boss mob, but aside from that - even though they had decently configured and balanced team builds - I didn't see anything that popped out to me as "challenging".

The problem? All of those areas I mentioned actually have enemies with decently configured builds.

So the question is this: how much of a difference would we actually see? Given what I've said above, the answer would appear that it would be less difficult. Now I fully agree with getting rid of this stuff in Normal Mode since that's what would be called the "intended" form of play, but in terms of Hard Mode I can't say the same.

When it comes to the monster side of balancing, what really needs fixing?

While the monsters you mentioned are easier, people learn more while playing against more balanced monsters that draw their power from builds and team composition rather than insane stats.
This thread is not about challenge , it's about people sucking and what can be done about it.
Something interesting, most people I know that complained that something is hard were complaining just about the charrs in eotn, and not monsters with insane stats and damage. What they they said about monsters like aatxes: "I just [Protective spirit] it lol!"
Giving monsters insane buffs and shit builds won't improve the player, he will just exploit some weakness and won't learn much.
Ideally, both us and the monsters wouldn't use pve skills and have insane stats, in such an environment (that is close to pvp) people will learn more than fighting monsters with 3 skills and stats that go through the roof.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Do you know what items I have or haven't?

I may have duped armbraces and have 1000 of them sitting on my chest.

How does that knowledge or lack of it changes the playstyle of the game? Changes your builds, change the way you use your skills?

The mere presense of something in the game changes the whole game even if you or I don't use it. Not your duped 1000 armbraces, but the POTENTIAL to dupe armbraces. The problem here is not many people would get those 1000 armbraces the hard way if they knew they could be duped. Same goes for overpowered PvE stuff. Not many people use lesser powered stuff if they knew they could blow through levels easier with the overpowered.

So for this reason not many people will care about getting better because there is not much point. The only depth nowadays is how strong the stuff you are using is...the only knowledge and skill required is how to get and use the strong stuff.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You have the right to want it harder and believe it will be more fun. I've the right to disagree with it and think it will be less fun.

Please just don't say that making the game harder through stupid shit will make people more knowledgeable of the game and more skillful in the PvP sense of skill.

I don't know why you keep saying that we want the game to be harder. I thought this myth was blown out by Bryant or Snaek by now (I'm pretty sure it was). We want the DEPTH to be greater...that is there are super hard areas, hard areas, medium levels, easy levels, newbie levels. We want room for personal growth. We don't want the game to be watered down when we find stuff that makes 99% of the game becomes a cakewalk.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Avarre post was/is (at least the way I'm reading it, feel free to disabuse me of the notion Avarre) about creating both stupid "hard stuff" and both stupid "overpowered ways" of defeating it, because that increased the gap between the PvE and the PvP community. And that is bad to both communities.

Personally I think you read it wrong...maybe he could come in here and clear it up. I understood it to be that almost any difference in PvE and PvP was bad for the game...ESPECIALLY the different skills because players have to relearn everything.

To me the blending of PvE and PvP in Prophecies and Factions and the PvE to PvP transition was the greatest idea Guild Wars had going for it. I think the complete split, like heroes, was both a blessing and a curse.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The OP was why the community lacks knowledge of the game mechanics and prefer to abuse stuff instead and how can we increase the average knowledge of the player base.

The only way we can increase the knowledge of the playerbase is how to more quickly and efficiently attain and use powerful stuff that abuses the game mechanics (so they don't have to learn them). That is called inbalance. There is almost no need to teach them anything that personally grows them anymore.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The mere presense of something in the game changes the whole game even if you or I don't use it. Not your duped 1000 armbraces, but the POTENTIAL to dupe armbraces. The problem here is not many people would get those 1000 armbraces the hard way if they knew they could be duped.

That has exactly nothing to do with game mechanics and people getting more skillful and move to PvP, though.

I agree with you those things shouldn't exist either but the existence of those
things don't change game mechanics and GvG.

I don't know why you keep saying that we want the game to be harder. I thought this myth was blown out by Bryant or Snaek by now (I'm pretty sure it was). We want the DEPTH to be greater...that is there are super hard areas, hard areas, medium levels, easy levels, newbie levels. We want room for personal growth. We don't want the game to be watered down when we find stuff that makes 99% of the game becomes a cakewalk.

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The only problem I have with it is some scaling issues: Prot Spirit, Mesmers, etc. Aside from that I just see it as it's namesake intends: hard mode. Sure some builds could use some touch-ups, but bear in mind we're still dealing with an AI, something continuously inconsistent. Because of that, the only way you're going to find any sort of "challenge" is through "the stupid shit".

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

That has exactly nothing to do with game mechanics and people getting more skillful and move to PvP, though.

But the 2nd part of what I said does (the inbalanced stuff).

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I agree with you those things shouldn't exist either but the existence of those things don't change game mechanics and GvG.

Ok big opinion time...I honestly don't see much difference between duping and overpowered PvE stuff. The only difference I see is that one is intentionally put in place and the other isn't. One is an Anet sponsered exploit and the other is an unsponsered exploit.

And I don't see how you can say duping shouldn't exist but god mode and 10 billion damage could. I could get 1000 armbraces using either in probably the same amount of time.

I also don't see how what you posted from Bryant deals with my position. Hard mode should be hard...not a replacement for normal mode that it is now. The rest was about AI which a whole other topic I didn't comment on.

[DarkNecrid]

I think it's pretty horrible how this topic is still going and is the same 3 people arguing back and forth like nonsensical children. None of you are getting anywhere, you're all arguing the same stuff, no one is really saying anything to make a point. You're just arguing for the sake of it and no one is listening to anybody, let alone Fril. You basically took a topic, ignored what it was about, and pushed it in a completely other direction for your own goals. This topic wasn't about RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Hard Mode, if it should be hard or not, it wasn't about balance, it wasn't about PvP, it wasn't about GvG, it wasn't about the differences in PvE/PvP, it wasn't about monster imbalance, and it wasn't about "what we want in PvE". The entire point of this topic seemed to have smacked you in the heads, rebounded off your thick skulls, flew into outer space, and cried itself to sleep in the heat of a Sun about to go supernova.

The topic was about if GW players are bad because of the community's inability to teach, neigh, the community's apparent desire to ignore the responsibility to do so, and if so, how can we improve or change that? How can we improve getting the resources they need to them faster? How can we improve our ability to teach others?

Instead you all went on some maddening crusade on how the game sucks and how it is all ArenaNet's fault and how they should magically fix the game because everyone sucks at the game and basically proved Fril right. The community is bad because our resources aren't in good enough spots or aren't apparent enough to the average player, the people who teach just say stuff without explaining or don't do a good job of it, and most importantly, instead of trying to improve the community in some way, you're all sitting here stroking each others egos and blaming ArenaNet for everything instead of looking at the real problem.

This topic should have been locked a long time ago.

[bel unbreakable]

you get this locked and what will we all do for entertainment

[Savio]

You go QQ somewhere else.

This thread isn't going anywhere anymore, so closed.